The Lost Files, Ep. 3
A Special Edition of Fluency w/ Dr. Durell Cooper
In this specially commissioned series with Grantmakers in the Arts, The Lost Files, Dr. Durell Cooper invites artists, community organizers, researchers, cultural and racial studies experts, and scholars to think about the narratives driving the arts and cultural sector – as it intersects with systems of structural racism and economic exclusion – and what opportunities for narrative change exist.
A full transcript of this episode is available below.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Welcome, listeners. We are back with another episode of Fluency, brought to you in part by Grantmakers in the Arts with their generous support of this podcast series.
Today I couldn't be more excited to be joined by the incredible, the amazing... You know what? I often call this man the GOAT, and he will not call himself that. But when you look at the body of work that he has put together, there is no other way to describe what he has done.
Currently, Dr. Christopher Emdin is the Robert A. Naslund Endowed Chair in Curriculum Theory, and professor of Education at the University of Southern California where he also serves as Director of Youth Engagement and Community Partnerships at the USC Race and Equity Center.
He is also scholar and griot in residence at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. With all of that, beyond the accolades, multiple times over New York Times best-selling author, Dr. Christopher Emdin is just one of the realest and dopest human beings I've ever met. Welcome to Fluency, Dr. Emdin.
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Oh, thank you brother Durell. What an amazing introduction. I'm like, "Is he talking about me? Who is he talking about?" You humble me, dear brother. And I want to say this to you, my interactions with you thus far has been nothing less than absolutely explosive each time.
Your honesty, your candor, your intelligence, your depth, your love for the people comes out in everything that you say. And I was humbled enough to be able to bear witness to the confluence of all of your magic, being on your dissertation committee.
That document was groundbreaking, it was thoughtful, it was imaginative, it was forward thinking. I think the most powerful thing I could say about... It was so futurist in just its style and its content.
And so, dear brother, all that you say about me, I send right back to you. I am because people like you are, and we are on this journey. And I am humbled to share a space on this new platform that you have.
Yeah, bro. Greetings to you. I don't want to say good morning or afternoon because people might be listening at different times, but greetings to you. And I'm humbled to share a space with you.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Oh well, this space wouldn't be what it is without you blessing it. I guess I'll start there and give a little bit of background on how I have the privilege of actually knowing you and how I first got to know you, and this speaks to just the size of the heart that you have.
So I met you after you had given a keynote address at Lincoln Center Summer Forum. It was probably like 2019, I think it was the summer of 2019. And I wanted to take class with you. At that time, you were still teaching in New York City and I wanted to take class with you.
So I was like, "I'll go. I'll listen to his keynote, and then once it's over I'll see if I'll get an opportunity to meet him." Because you mentioned my dissertation. I was working on hip-hop education and looking at the influence of the arts with that, and I knew I needed to get knowledge from you.
I needed to sit under the tree of Dr. Emdin and let the wisdom drip down on me. And I met you, you were so nice in person and you allowed me to take your class. You allowed me to do it.
You took a chance on me. You didn't know me from... A stranger out in the street, but you took a chance on me and I never forgot that. But I also knew once I had an opportunity to learn from you, that I really had to maximize that opportunity because you could have said no.
But you said yes, and that showed me so much more about your character than anything I knew from reading your books, meeting the man... And sometimes they say meeting your heroes can be disappointing.
When I met you, you've only made me a better person all the way around because of the heart that you actually have, and the work that you do, and how much you actually love your people. And I guess let's start there. How much of that has been a nature versus nurture thing and the origin story of Christopher Emdin?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Bro, I want to say this to you, and I think it's important just for our listeners as well to understand. When you do work to align yourself to the divine and to the universe and consistently, in your personal time, ensure that you are a vessel and not a talking head...
When people come across your path that make requests from you, there's a certain intuition that gets activated and so you always have the right answer.
And so within 30 to 45 seconds of knowing you, I knew that we were kindred souls in the work because I have ensured that whoever crosses my path, I am keenly aware of where they are in the world and what their mission and intention are.
And just the same way I was like, "Yeah, come take the class. Take multiple classes." Where all of that was opened up, I want to also be clear, there have been instances where all of that has been closed.
Because I've been aware that the intention of the individual was not about the growth of the community or the growth of their work or the growth of our collective development, and it was more individualistic.
So if we were to start anywhere, I would say that I operate the way I do in the world because I spend a lot more time centering myself than producing work. I spent a lot more time giving myself affirmations and reflecting and meditating.
Before this conversation today I was like, "I've got to meet with Durell at a certain time." So I have to clear my space for an hour beforehand to ensure that when we speak I offer something that has value, not just to you but whoever listens.
One of my favorite collaborators is GZA from Wu-Tang. And one of the favorite lines he dropped on me eons ago, he said, "Chris, always go... It's better to go half long and twice strong."
And what I take that to mean in my work is it's better off to go shorter and in depth time with self so that when you offer something, it has more power. You could speak for two hours to somebody and they get nothing from it, because you've not spent the hour beforehand preparing for it.
And so if it's hidden secrets of how Emdin operates that I don't get to share with everybody, it's that I spend a lot of time with myself, speaking to myself, speaking to my ancestors, being intentional about making sure my ego is out the way.
Because the way this world operates is when you get titles and accolades and [inaudible 00:07:28] this and award this and award that, if you don't pay attention, you let those awards dictate who you are. And then your ego gets activated.
And once your ego gets activated, your vision for good work gets lost. So with every accolade I receive, I recognize that there's more work to do to ensure that I don't get caught up in the accolades. And I recognize that those accolades are not about me, but about what I received to give.
So when somebody gives me an award, it's not an award for Chris Emdin. When somebody gives me an award, it is confirmation that the ancestors downloaded something into me to offer back.
It's always recognizing that when you keep yourself low, you always keep firing. And again, one of my favorite lines, everybody who knows me knows this. I always say that line from Biggie, "Was told in shoot outs, stay low and keep firing."
Folks think that that means, you stay low in the trenches and keep firing. No, you stay low in spirit. Stay humble in spirit and keep doing your work. The world is a shootout."Was told in shootouts, stay low and keep firing." The world is a place where callous beings spout out words to harm and hurt and construct laws that devalue the human spirit.
In 2022, we are having conversations about whether or not a woman has a right to choose what she does with her own body. The world is full with folks who are intent on ensuring that our rights are robbed from us.
In those circumstances, you must stay low, humble in spirit and keep doing your work. It's the only way you counter oppression. So I don't know if I answered your question, but those are some words that I hold dear, that I use to guide my practice. And then those are some things that I do to ensure that when I offer something to the world, it's something of significance.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Oh. Would you be willing to jump into a time capsule with me for a second? Let's hop in the DeLorean.
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Let's go.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Let's go back to the Bronx. You growing up, the '70s. What was it like for you, taking in this real world, real time development of hip-hop culture, seeing the Bronx still burning? What was that like for you growing up, and how much of that do you still connect to your work today?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Man, I want to begin by saying the Bronx is everything to me. The physical place of the Bronx, the idea that gets conjured up in the imagination of the public when they hear the words "the Bronx".
The smell of cuchifritos on the Grand Concourse, the taste of Jamaican food on Gun Hill Road. When I think of the Bronx, all of my senses get activated. And then I'm going to share something with you that a lot of folks don't know, which is that I actually grew up in Brooklyn.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
What?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
I know. Because I rep the Bronx so hard... I rep the Bronx so hard wherever I go. I actually was raised in East 21st Street in Brooklyn, East Flatbush. I came up in Brooklyn, and my family moved to the Bronx when I was 12.
And so while Brooklyn has a place of my soul, I came of age in the Bronx. When you go from 12 to 13, when you start figuring out how the world works, when you start figuring out what oppression really is, you start...
When the world starts getting opened up... Just developmentally, I came of age and the Bronx embraced me. And then I moved to the Bronx when I was 12 and 13, and I have a spot in the Bronx, and I will to the day I...
And the reason why I share that with you is because Brooklyn in the '80s crack era, East Flatbush, clashes between Jewish folks and black folks, that shaped me as a young person in a really powerful way.
I understood in Brooklyn what it meant to be devalued because of your skin, because I would walk through East Flatbush and you see the crack vials on the floor.
And then I'd go with my mom who worked for some more wealthier white folks in a different area and I would see, "Why is it different? Why is it when you see the cops at the Jewish neighborhood that they show up? And when you call them in East Flat, it wasn't...?"
So as a young person, I was seeing inequity that early. And then we moved to the Bronx when I was like 12. And then when we moved to the Bronx, I had at that point understood the variances between the experiences of black folks and white folks. And it was there that I embraced it, because the Bronx forces you to embrace it.
Because the Bronx is the Bronx, right? That's where the leftovers were. That's where the place was burning. That's where the folks who were just not valued were.
And they were like, "We know what you think of us, and we don't believe it." And that's why the Bronx is so special to me because the Bronx has a perception, everywhere but the Bronx, that is different from the perception of those who are in the Bronx.
Everybody else says, "Y'all ain't shit," and we're like, "We're the shit." The Bronx understands that you tried to burn it down but you couldn't burn down the spirit and the souls or the culture of hip-hop.
That in the midst of the ashes of you burning down the buildings, we will give birth to a cultural artifact that will transform the world. The Bronx is my coming of age. It also is a metaphor for my identity. You know what I mean? It's a little rough on the outside, but I know I got something special to offer.
And I'd say when we moved to the Bronx, it wasn't all hunky-dory in many ways I guess, but it was so beautiful in so many others. You know what I mean? Skelly and Seelo off the apartment building at 1240 Walton Avenue was everything.
My building, 1240 Walton Avenue, that we moved to when I was younger... Because we technically got priced out of Brooklyn. Even that early, there was pricing out of Brooklyn when we moved to the Bronx.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Wow.
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Yeah. Yeah, we got priced out of Brooklyn. There was an abandoned building across the street from me. It was an abandoned hospital. And we would just go into the abandoned building and play manhunt for hours, and discover, and think, and dream, and play.In the backdrop, the folks be playing their music at volume three. And the Bronx is always such a multimodal and so complex soundtrack. In Brooklyn all I heard was [inaudible 00:14:53] music.
In the Bronx, I heard salsa, I heard what were the early forms of reggaeton, I heard hip-hop, I heard reggae. In the Bronx in the '80s, I heard Bella and Afro beats before it became popular on Hot 97 right now.
It was the amalgamation of culture in the most powerful and beautiful way, and that's why the Bronx is always in my heart. And I bring the Bronx to my scholarship everywhere I go because I bring hip-hop to my scholarship.
If it's too polished, I say, "Let me put a little Bronx in this joint. Put a little gritty on it." If it's too inauthentic, I go back to my days growing up and I say, "What pieces of the truth needs to be interspersed in this document to give it the rawness?"
And most importantly, all the narratives I share are birthed out of my experiences in the Bronx. And so I love Brooklyn. Technically, that's supposed to be my home, but I rep the Bronx because the Bronx is who I am.
The Bronx claimed me. The Bronx welcomed me, man, as a confused teenager. And the Bronx said to me that, "You are good enough as you are." And everywhere else said, "You've got to be something else." And so that's my Bronx story.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I would definitely consider you to be a multi-hyphenate. Most people probably know your academic career, but you are also an incredible speaker. I would even say motivational speaker in the way in which you deliver.
You are officially the Reverend, Dr. Christopher Emdin. So you do also have your ministry in that sense as well. And you are also an MC as well too. What was your first passion or the first thing that you can remember falling in love with, growing up, where you went, "You know what? I think I want to do this until I don't want to do this anymore"?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Durell, hip-hop. The first thing I can remember wanting to do with my life was rhyme. I wanted to spit, bro. I looked at MCs and I just loved the way they had a command over the audience, the way their words bent over rhythms in this intricate and beautiful way.
The way that the sonic experience could transport me to another world. The way that they have a bravado, but yet a humility. The way that they were connected to the community but had these aspirations and dreams to go beyond it.
Their style, their dress, their inflections. I wanted to be an MC. I wanted to be like Big Daddy Kane or Rakim. And then later on in life, I wanted to be a member of Wu-Tang. Those were my aspirations. Everything else was minuscule in comparison to that.
I remember tagging up on my ninth grade walls in graffiti, CHS-One because I wanted to be KRS-One. Hip-hop was everything, and still is everything to me. And I wrote my first rhyme when I was like nine. And when I couldn't rhyme, I was break dancing. You know what I mean?
And I shared with you before about me doing a little bit of graffiti. I tried to DJ but I never had the bread to have the turntables. But otherwise, I would have spent all day on that as well.
All the elements of hip-hop spoke to me, particularly the art of MCing. I love that MCing means... Like Rakim said, because to me, MC means move the crowd. I loved how the sound of your voice can physically move an audience. I also loved how the sound of your voice can emotionally move an audience.
I loved being able to study complex words, and then being able to put them in my rhymes and make those complex words palatable to an audience who didn't understand the words I said. You know what I mean?
So I could be like, "Yo, we hit the dance floor. Have y'all sweating wet up like petrichor." They'd be like, "What is petrichor?" And they were like, "Oh my gosh, that is the smell of the rain before it comes."
And I had kids in the hood who were 11 and 10 going to the dictionary to look up words that their teachers could not make them go study. But they heard it in my rhyme, so they wanted to.So I've always understood the power of MCing and the power of hip-hop. And I think that today as a writer and a speaker and a thinker, I write like a MC, I speak like a MC, I think like a MC.
And I think that folks think that to MC means to rap. Nah, rap is just a manifestation of the essence of MCing. I'm a MC, I just write books instead.
And even in my last book, Ratchetdemic, it's so funny because folks will read the book and they'll be like, "Yo, it sounded like you were rhyming here," or, "It sounded like you had a double entendre and that sentence had multiple meaning."
I'm like, "Yeah. I write the book like I'm writing a rhyme." And some folks get it, and some folks don't. And when I write the book, I write it in a way where those who don't get it can still get the essence of the book.
But I write it for those who do get it. I write it for the rap enthusiasts who can catch the word play and the interjections and the incomplete sentences on page 44 to be picked up on page 49. And those who get it will appreciate the work more.
And I get that folks will read it different ways, but I'm writing it like a MC because MCs write rhymes so you can go back a year later and rewind it and be like, "Yo, did he say that?"
I write my books the same way. I am a book writing and public speaking MC. You know what I mean? And it's because I have been and will forever be in love with hip-hop.
Hip-hop is a person to me, it's like my oldest friend. And as we've grown up, we still love each other. You know what I mean? And we make decisions that each other may not like.
This is real. I remember making the decision early on in my career, because I'm a science educator, to be just a science educator in a traditional sense.
And hip-hop was like, "Yo, you're a sucker." Hip-hop spoke to me and said, "Is that who you are?" And then I apologized to hip-hop and re-embraced hip-hop in my work. And then I could say to hip-hop, "This is what you're doing right now? Y'all just going to be misogynistic all day long?"
We are such good friends. We talk to each other, we critique each other, we grow together, we evolve together. We never let each other go, even when we make mistakes. So yeah, man. My deepest aspirations from the beginning was to be in hip-hop and to be an MC.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Wow. Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for sharing that. And you brought up Ratchetdemic. I wanted to talk about your writing next, so this is a perfect way to bring that in.
To say that you are an amazing writer would be a gross understatement. Because you do so many different things, a person's introduction into you and to your work could be different.
Maybe they saw you at a conference, maybe they saw one of your many TED talks, which are all fire. Or maybe they read your work first, which that was my first introduction to you, it was reading For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too.
And first of all, everything you just described about your writing is exactly what I was able to extricate from the reading of it. And you are a literary genius. There's no other way to put it.
For you, as that writing self, how are you able to find time within your schedule to go, "You know what? Here it is, this is going to be my writing time"? Do you have to take two weeks off and focus directly on that?
Because your voice as a writer is so strong and so incredibly distinct that I can tell that there's no other distractions going on, other than that one voice at that one time. How are you able to focus all of that energy into different writing projects?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
First of all, thank you for how you describe my work and my writing. That humbles me greatly, bro. And I appreciate it. When I write, I honor different parts of the writing process.
So there's creative time. And that's the time alone to think and write up, but without putting words on paper. I'm writing in my head. So I'm going for a long walk. I'm speaking to the ancestors and asking them to give me something to say.
I'm smelling flowers. I'm listening to birds. One of my heroes is Maxine Green, and which is why I decided to work at Lincoln Center. I'm at Lincoln Center right now and the role I'm in for however long I'm in it because of my reverence for Maxine.
And Maxine Green talks about wide awakeness. The quieting of the noise and the awakening of the senses to see the beauty and magic on all that's around you.
So I write first by activating my wide awakeness, just to look at the beauty of the... It's so funny because when I talk, I speak quickly. But when I think, I think so slow. Time slows down.
I look at the way that particles of dust float through the air, and I can watch particles of dust float through the air for 45 minutes and utilize the pathways of the particles of dust floating across the air to think of the way that life works and happens.
It activates something in my writing. So I'm very, very, very in tune with my environment. I try to remain awake. So that's the creative part. That's a time-taking part.
The other part is ratchet, it's mad easy. You know what I'm saying? Once I'm downloaded and I'm full, I can sit at a laptop, get these joints out, get these joints out, get these joints out. Oh man, I didn't go there. I'll go somewhere else.
Put that in a folder for some time later on. Whew, it's out. Man. Play with my babies. I chill. And then I wake up at the crack of dawn in the morning and let the universe speak to me again. You know what I mean?
So the hardest part of writing is the pre-writing, it's creating the space to allow yourself to be moved and touched, and to reflect on your experiences and what you witnessed.
And then the other thing about my writing that I found later on... I discovered this about the writing later on, is that I write my best work sitting in the back of classrooms.
So probably 85% of For White Folks, I was in the school working with a teacher. Sitting in the back of the classroom, teacher's teaching, the kids are yelling.
There's something about the beautiful noise and beautiful dance that is teaching and learning, especially when I'm writing about teaching and learning. That helps me put it out.
I've always felt like I can't write about schools without being in schools. This is the part I don't get about people who write about education who have not been in the classroom. I couldn't do it.
So I download on my own, I pour out when I can, and then I articulate the essence of it with the beautiful noise of teaching and learning in the backdrop in classrooms.
And I've been blessed to have teachers in schools and districts invite me in to do work or to coach or whatever else it is. And I'm like, "Yo, can I just kick it in the back?" And they're like, "Oh sure." And I'm like, "Thank you."
They have no idea what they're doing for me because I'm watching the experiences in real time. If I'm writing about the inequities in the social conditions in schools and how there are bars on windows and metal detectors, and I just came through a metal detector, and I'm sitting with bars on the windows, and I see a child in the back responding to it, I don't have to imagine it.
I don't have to draw conjecture. I don't have to make something up. I see it. And in a way, I frame [inaudible 00:28:03] came from what was given to me when I was spending the time alone.
And somehow there's a confluence of the previous work and the present work and boom, the work just happens. I do at some point want to write more about life more generally and my experience more generally.
And that's part of growth. You want to grow. So I want to grow, I want to expand. I'm doing a book right now that I'm so excited about that's actually co-authored with a battle rapper named Loaded Lux. And what we have so far is just so magical.
And it's just great to be able to partner with another person who's... I think he's a genius, and I want the world to see how much of a genius he is. And so that's been fun. But that, I guess, in essence is part of the process of producing written work.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
I'm going to say something and I know you're not going to want to hear this or hold onto it and let it sit and land. But I have to say it anyway. Dr E, I honestly believe that you are ahead of your time.
Your work, it's such an excavation of the past, a critique of our present and hope for the future, all compounding onto each other simultaneously, through each thing that you write, and each thing that you do.
And again, I know you probably don't see yourself as that, but there are so many things... I think about Ratchetdemic and even the concept and the terminology in itself, it's so far advanced to where most educators are thinking about or most school systems are set up.
I think about a lot of people who are working within the abolition space right now. When they talk about, "Okay. If we abolish the current systems that are in place, we also then have to reimagine what will be built once that happens."
Your work is that re-imagining. That's the space that you've lived in this entire time. And I do understand where we are. And again, all of these things are lapping onto each other, and they all have to happen simultaneously in order to get to where we're going.
But we all have our unique places and our roles within these collective movements towards liberation, towards freedom. When my students ask me... "Well, if we do that, if we abolish the systems, then we also need to think about what's going to be in their place."
Your work is that. Pick up one of Dr E's books, and then you'll know what we can do as an alternative world and as an alternative reality. Do we get there, Dr. E, to this alternative world?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
I think we get there, but I also think we've been there. I think sometimes we aspire to where we've been. And the nature of how you make sense of space and time rob us of the opportunity to see that progress exists in what the world frames as past.
And future exists in many ways, but has always existed. Here's my state, this is my belief. And folks might think I'm crazy. I think that one, space and time is a continuum. We don't progress towards anything and we don't advance. We just exist in this continuum, a perpetual loop.
And the loop spirals upwards or downwards into new universes, like a black hole. You go through the black hole and you enter a new universe, you spin long enough and then you...
It's in the spinning that you increase the capacity to enter into the new dimension. And folks who fail to spin, who get stuck in this idea of, "We are just going one way..." Linearity doesn't allow you to spin towards new possibility.
I also believe that our ancestors lived but also created blank spaces in the concept of space and time for us to come back to occupy. And so time was progressing, time progressed, and they said, "Okay. Erase out this spot because my descendants will come and take it up."
And it happened over time. But we started believing that going towards the future was progress linearly in one way. And so we've missed the opportunities to go back and fill in the blank spaces our ancestors left for us.
And what I wanted to do on my work is always take the time to articulate what could exist in the blank spaces. And that's why it's equal parts, historical and futurist because I recognize that those things occur in complete unison with each other.
And I don't know if that's going to make sense to everybody, but it's just the way I think of the world. I'll go read just some phrasing by Septima Clark. Powerful, beautiful black woman who existed in the world, they didn't know what to do with her, and then she left the space for me that I could color in with Ratchetdemic.
Or I'll read something from a 12th grader who writes a rhyme in Science Genius, like Science Genius battles which is this thing we do where kids write raps about science.
And that child's imagination is so dense, but I know that child has seen something because they're 17 and writing something I've never felt before. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this child is writing a blank space into the future that somebody has to fill in."And so I've always said I just want to fill in the blank spaces folks leave. And I want to be able to pay attention enough to how the world works, so that I can see those blank spaces and fulfill what their visions were.
So I think we get there, yes. But I think we're already there. We just have to have the discernment to not get caught up in the linearity of this contract of space and time and delve deeply into the spin of occupying the blank spaces that already exist.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
I really hope people understand what you just said there. Not only do we get there, but we are already there. And so in many ways, your work and your ministry, even if you will, is pulling back those layers so people can see it's been here all along, which is beautiful.
Dr. E, let me ask you this. So a lot of this series, through Grantmakers in the Arts, we're looking at philanthropy and talking about different issues that might exist there, and looking to shift different narratives that have been created.
But I think what I want to focus it on is this idea of giving back, which is something that you've dedicated your life to in so many different ways, whether it's being a board member for many different organizations, or whether it's through your work as an educator.
When did this sense of giving back, when did it first develop for you? And then when did you start to see it manifest in your life as ways in which you give to friends, family, the next generation of thinkers and scholars?
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
That's why we're here. That's why we're here. The entire purpose of existence is to offer yourself and what you've gathered to others, so that they can create the conditions to do that for others and for you.
I really believe the reason that we are on this planet is to offer something to the other people on this planet. There's no other way, there's no other...
For me, there's no other way that I can make sense of the purpose of humanity if it's not to offer and to engage in this beautiful exchange of receiving and offering. That's why we're here.
I'm always fascinated by people who don't understand the necessary reciprocity that one must engage in to be a part of this thing called humanity. I just don't understand it. I can't get it.
I'm not saying that to say that you just deplete yourself. What I'm saying is when you understand that it's about reciprocity, you give and then you receive. Look at this podcast. I had to create a fraction of space in my time to both mentally prepare for it and engage in it.
I'm already in the midst of it, receiving the gift of your presence, and your love, and kind words that I need in moments where I may feel depleted sometimes, because life is constructed that way.
And it is to exist in a state of consciousness that understands the magic of reciprocity, that humanity has meaning. I guess that's how I get down. You know what I mean?
If I got a little time, why not bless somebody with it? What would I do with it otherwise? I would probably be doing something otherwise that would not benefit the world.
So you give it. You got a little extra bread, somebody ain't got it? Yo, you bless them. Whatever you bless them with, they can make something out of it. That makes the world better.
And you're existing in the world and if you deplete a bit, you open up space to receive a lot. It's a beautiful question to ask because I want folks who are listening to us to understand it.
But for me it's like, "Well, why are we here if not to give, and then create the conditions for others to be able to give, and then keep moving along on this journey so you receive?"
And I receive so much blessing. And it's not necessarily financial, although I ain't never going to be broke because scripture says the righteous would never be broken and seed would never be begging bread.
So I know I'm going to be good regardless. I never function with the assumption that that may not be the case. So given my recognition of that fact... And few things are fact, that's fact.
I just operate in the world recognizing what the goal of humanity is. You breathe in, you breathe out. That's how you live. You give, you'll receive. That's how you live. That's a universal formula, baby. If you don't get the universal formula, then you're dead.
And you may be alive and still dead. I don't want to be alive and still dead. I want to be alive physically, emotionally, spiritually, financially. And that's going to require me to understand how to breathe in, take in, receive and breathe out. Give. Offer. It's the essence of existence.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Dr. E, your intellect, your charm, your charisma is only matched by one thing. And I'm going to keep coming back to it. It's your heart and spirit. That's it. That's it.
And I can't let you go without talking about your latest work, especially because I want people to go out and get it, but Stem, Steam, Make, Dream...
Especially this audience which will be a lot of artists, people who work within the philanthropy space, cultural workers. And so tell us about Stem, Steam, Make, Dream.
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
Yeah. I don't know. The audience probably can't see the smile on my face as I talk about this book. But I was trained in the sciences. My undergraduate degrees are in physical anthropology, biology, and chemistry.
I did mesenchymal stem cell research. I did research on the ideology of schizophrenia for decades. I've worked in the science industry, but I am an artist. In the words of Erykah Badu, "And I'm sensitive about my ish."
I'm an artist. I love just what art is. And I believe so much in the expansion of what the concept of what art is. When I do my science work, I see the art in it.
A scientific principle or idea or concept does not get connected to an audience, unless it's articulated in a way where it becomes a work or force of art. I understand that.
And I think we live in this world that constructs these binaries. Science is an art, and art is a science. These things are not separated from each other.
And in Stem, Steam, Make, Dream, I just want to tell the world what already is, about the fact that science and technology, engineering, the arts and mathematics are one and the same.
Those who've constructed these binaries or these separations between the disciplines are those who are very limited in mind and scope and mission and will, and only separate them because they feel like they can do one thing. And they want to be the best and brightest and the smartest in the world.
And so they utilize their ego to separate the most brilliant folks in the world away from STEM. And those are who engage in the arts. My recent work with Lincoln Center Education is I've been pushing them cats to understand that teaching is a performance art.
So if you're privileged, ballet or dance or privileged, teaching because then it's an art. And I've also been working with them to recognize that youth are works of art, and every human being is a work of art.
They're colored by the strokes of their experiences, and they are the manifestation of an artistic design beyond them, just by virtue of their existence.
And since we are art, all we produce is art. And some get fine tuned in certain ways. But if we are art and we are scientific beings made up with intricacies and organs and cells, then how are those worlds not seen as one and the same?
And so Stem, Steam, Make, Dream is about, "Yeah, everybody talked about STEM for a while, then they're talking about steam." First of all, increase that A. It's not just the arts, it's arts and ancestry, arts and aptitude, art and artistic aptitude, and just art and culture.
So expanding out the A in the arts. It's not just a discipline, it's a way of knowing and being that hugs science, technology, engineering and mathematics.
When we make whatever we make a work of art, a meal, that it's in the making of things, that the scientific piece meets the artistic piece. And then also, how do we do STEM without dreaming? Radical dreaming about amazing new possibilities.
And when I say radical dreaming, dreaming is not just about future. Dreaming of past, engaging in the world and its beauty and magic. And so I've never seen...
I'm a scientist because I got degrees in science, but I'm an artist by virtue of birth and worldview. And the more that we bring these disciplines together, the more we can make this universe spin towards the wormhole to new possibilities.
So yeah, interdisciplinary, I think is such a powerful thing. And we don't do enough of it. And Stem, Steam, Make, Dream offers us the opportunity to be able to reimagine these disciplines and reimagine our relationships to them.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Dr. E, thank you so much for your time today. Please. So we've talked about For White Folks Who Teach In The Hood. We talked about Ratchetdemic. We talked about Stem, Steam, Make, Dream.
You will not be disappointed if you go out and purchase a copy of any one of Dr. E's works. Phenomenal. I'm going to say this, it just hit me right now.
I don't know how it's going to land for you, but I really do think Dr. E, that you are one of the last greatest gifts that God has put here on this Earth for us, especially in the work that you do.
So thank you so much for being you. Thank you so much for doing the work because I know it's not easy. And just thank you for everything that you mean for the culture.
In many ways, you are leading in so many different ways from the spirit, which is the way that we should be leading. So just thank you. Thank you for leading by example.
Dr. Christopher Emdin:
My dear brother, good Dr. Cooper, I receive all that you've offered, and I give it back to you tenfold. You're magic. Every platform that you engage in, written, podcast, play, whatever it is, it'll be blessed because you have such a beautiful soul.
And it's been a gift for me to share some space with you today. I hope folks who listen can glean some wisdom from our interaction. And I'll see you soon, bro.
Dr. Durell Cooper:
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
About the Contributors
Dr. Christopher Emdin is the Robert A. Naslund Endowed Chair in Curriculum Theory and Professor of Education at the University of Southern California; where he also serves as Director of youth engagement and community partnerships at the USC Race and Equity Center. He is also Scholar/Griot in Residence at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. He previously served as Associate Director of the Institute for Urban and Minority Education and Director of the Science Education program at Teachers College, Columbia University.
Dr. Emdin is an alumni fellow at the Hip-hop Archive and Hutchins Center at Harvard University and was STEAM Ambassador for the U.S. Department of State and Minorities in Energy Ambassador for the U.S. Department of Energy. Dr. Emdin holds a Ph.D in Urban Education with a concentration in Mathematics, Science, and Technology; Masters degrees in both Natural Sciences and Education and Bachelors degrees in Physical Anthropology, Biology, and Chemistry. He is the creator of the #HipHopEd social media movement, Science Genius BATTLES and the CREATE Accelerator. He was recently named one of the 27 people bridging divides in the United States by Time magazine and the Root 100 list of most influential African Americans.
He is the author of numerous award winning works including the award-winning, Urban Science Education for the Hip-hop Generation and the New York Times bestseller, For White Folks Who Teach In the Hood and the Rest of Ya’ll too. His latest books, Ratchetdemic: Reimagining Academic Excellence and STEM STEAM Make Dream are currently available wherever books are sold.
Dr. Durell Cooper is one of the nation’s most prominent cultural strategists specializing in systems change and collaborative thought leadership. Prior to founding cultural innovation group, llc, he was a program officer at the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs (DCLA). He also worked at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, inc. In the marketing department conducting outreach to veteran service organizations and for Lincoln Center education recruiting and training teaching artists as well as several community engagement initiatives aimed at increasing equity and inclusion in NYC public schools. Prior to that he was a public-school teacher. Durell is also a proud veteran of the U.S. Navy. He is also the creator and host of the web series, Flow, and the podcast, Fluency with Dr. Durell Cooper.
