A Conversation Among Friends
Part of the “Soothing the Itch” Series
by Meena Malik and Quita Sullivan, followed by an Intention Setting Meditation with Meena Malik
Conrhonda
A conversation among friends.
Welcome, GIA listener.
I'm honored to bring you a captivating conversation. Meena Malik and Quita Sullivan. Give us a peek into their longtime friendship while taking us on a journey through their inspiring experiences, shedding light on the significance of building authentic relationships with grantees and fostering trust to drive meaningful change. Listen in as they delve into the transformative realm of trust-based philanthropy and the power of Ensemble Thinking. Together, they explore approaches they've deployed to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion in the arts sector. So, get ready to be enlightened, inspired and challenged as they unlock the secrets behind impactful philanthropy and advocate for its untapped potential for a more vibrant and inclusive artistic landscape.
Meena
Okay, so hi Quita.
Quita
Hey Meena.
Meena
How are you doing today?
Quita
I'm doing pretty good. Things are going the way I need them to go today.
Meena
Sounds good.
Quita
So, yeah. And I get to see you. So, that's always a highlight, so.
Meena
On a Monday early afternoon for you, I guess.
Quita
Yeah, start the week off right.
Meena
Yay. Thanks for doing this with me. When originally I was approached to do this kind of follow-up to the GIA Reader Project, I guess I did earlier this year. They offered maybe I can write something and offer something, and I was like, I really like conversations and dialogue and I feel like that's where I'm most stimulated in, rather than just writing on my own. I think I'm a verbal processor as well, so most of the time when I have to write something, I verbalize it first anyways and then I write it down. So, I was like, I think it'll be nice if you could do a dialogue. And we were talking, Karanda and I were talking and she's like, "Who would you want to talk to? And I was like, "I think it'll be Quita." Yeah, we've been working together. We worked together in the same program for a long time, and there's just a lot of conversations that we have personally in closed rooms, just the two of us, and I don't know, I thought it'd be cool to do it in this format. So, thanks for saying yes.
Quita
You're welcome.
Meena
Do we want to do a quick visual description before we move forward?
Quita
Sure, I can do that. [inaudible 00:02:58], Quita Sullivan. [inaudible 00:03:02]. My name is Quita Sullivan. I am a light-skinned native and black woman with, I was going to say salt and pepper, but really it's just gray, gray hair and a black dress with a picture of my homelands' Montauk, New York behind me. So you see beach and land and sky. I am wearing headphones, so I have a microphone in front of my face.
Meena
Thank you. Sorry, I should have said we're doing this. So, I am Meena Malik. I use she, her pronouns. I'm a East Asian, south Asian woman with kind of fair skin, I guess dark hair with some highlights that are just kind of disappearing on the tip of my hair. Pretty long hair, wavy pulled up on the top and I'm wearing a white dress with flowers on it, wearing earrings from Quita, gifted from Quita. And I did not blur my background. I'm in my studio office with kind of, what would I say this color is off-white color background with lots of instruments behind me, a little cluttered. But yeah, I'm happy to be here. So, let's start with our relationship to philanthropy. So Quita, can you share first how you started in philanthropy?
Quita
Yeah, so my first relationship with philanthropy is where most people usually come from. It's as a grantee, which was applying for grants and receiving them occasionally, not always, but receiving them occasionally. And I was working as an environmental justice attorney, and then that was difficult as you could imagine. I took a fellowship in philanthropy, a diversity fellowship, which was in 2006. At that time it was Grantmakers Association of Massachusetts or something like that. And it's now Philanthropy Massachusetts, much easier to remember. And that whole fellowship was about bringing people of color directly into the field of philanthropy with the hopes that by changing whose insight philanthropy, that more diverse grants would be made. And that was in 2006. And since then I've been in various forms of philanthropy, culminating with being here at New England Foundation for the Arts since 2010 as an employee, but four years before that as an advisor for their native arts program. So, I've been on both sides of this and came into it as a change maker.
Meena
Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, I think I would say similarly, both sides. I think first it was as a arts administrator working for a chamber orchestra, applying for grants and receiving grants for programs, mostly programs, gen ops is rare. Much needed by the way. I feel like that was my first interaction with foundations. I didn't apply directly, but I managed that relationship with funders. And then my first official grant making relationship was built through NEFA when I started working in 2014. And I was at NEFA for eight years. And that's where I learned about the other side of things where what does it look like to create a process of applying to grants application process.
It's an interesting organization being that it's an intermediary organization. It's different from a family foundation or foundations that have their own money. So, there was a lot of learning that happened for me. It was quite exciting too because once I started working for NEFA, then I was invited to be on lots of panels as well for different grant programs. And so, I also received some artist grants during that time. I didn't say I'm an artist. Yeah, that was my first thing and it is still. So yeah, I feel like I'm not being articulate, but that's okay. Today's that kind of day. So Quita, can you share, can we talk about how we met and what we have done together?
Quita
I want to actually talk about that actual day because I was at my wits end, I needed to hire a program-
Meena
Coordinator
Quita
Coordinator, I think it was coordinator at that point. And because prior to that, it had been a part-time position, and I'd had two different folks trying to hold down two parts of NEFA and it just wasn't working for them and it wasn't working for me. And so, we're finally going to hire a full-time person, and I was really unhappy with the folks who had applied. And then your resume came across my desk almost the very last minute and we're like, okay, look, she's even had experience in the database that we're using, in the CRM that we're using. We have to bring her in. And the interview was with you, me and Jane Preston, who was manager of programs at that point. And I forget what her actual title was then, but I remember the moment I looked at Jane and we said, "Can you wait here?"
And I looked at Jane and we walked out and said, "We're hiring her." And we walked back in and offered you the position. And it was the first time and only time I have ever done that in my entire life. But it was so clear to me and to Jane that you were what we needed, not just because of your experience, but because of the way you thought about how things worked. And for me, it was also important because the other candidates were predominantly white women, and I was just very uncomfortable because of the direction I wanted the grant program to go in, and I was really uncomfortable with who was interviewing. So yes, first and last time I've ever offered anybody a job at an interview.
Meena
Yeah, that was something, oh my gosh, yeah, I remember you two coming back in the room giggling. I was like, what's happening? I hope this is good news. But yeah, I think at that time, which 2014 doesn't seem like that far, and yet it feels far at the same time. It's strange. But at that time, because we became the two people in the theater department, the National Theater Project at NEFA. It was really rare to find two women of color running a program. That was not a common thing in philanthropy at all. And so, I remember that being something that I really, I don't know, I took it to heart. I was like, oh, this is serious.
Of course, I didn't know much about grantmaking. I didn't know, to be honest. I didn't know much about devised ensemble theater work. I learned so much, and now I love it. I love the field. Once you're in it, you can't leave it, I guess. But yeah, I thought that that was a very serious thing, who we were in those positions, and I really wanted to focus on showing up as my full self as much as possible. And you supported me in doing that because our identities, who we were, as you said, was equally as important as the skills that we brought. But yeah, so that's how we met and-
Quita
And I would say that what you just said about who we are is just as important as the skills, because then later you and I went on to hire a young white male.
Meena
We did.
Quita
But it was entirely because of who he was and how he was thinking.
Meena
Yeah.
Quita
It had nothing to do in that sense with identity. He was really the candidate who really came in already thinking about equity, already thinking about where do we go from here? What is our next step? So, and that really, I think that's really how we've looked at it over time is it's about what do we need as a team in order to move this forward.
Meena
Yeah. I think we're always a team. That's another thing. Yeah, it was in, I mean, we are individuals, but we always worked as a team. And the program briefly that we worked together on it's National Theater Project, which is a grant that supports creation and touring of devised ensemble theater work. And it started off with funding six grantees each year. And now you are at
Quita
10.
Meena
10.
Quita
I'm at 10 creation and touring grantees and 14 artist development grantees, so that even if you do not get the larger grant, you are still getting a grant. And that grant is very much a gen ops artist support grant. So, there's always at least one, it doesn't seem fair to get to that point. It doesn't seem equitable to put you through all of that work and not have a grant at the end of it.
Meena
Yeah.
Quita
It may be the $10,000 Small Artist Development Grant, but it's still a grant. And I say that, and I find myself lately catching myself when I say it's only $10,000, and I remember a time when I would've been grateful for eight or five or two.
Meena
Yeah. Yes. And it's also honoring that work that the artist is doing. So it's in a way, it's not just about the monetary amount, but it's also the gesture of acknowledging the work that it's put in because it is a pretty intense application process with two rounds. And most of the time, for the first round, we used to get anywhere between what upper nineties to a hundred something applications, and then you have to reduce that to 24 finalists. And so, they have to go through two processes. So yeah, I think that's yeah.
Quita
And I think from the beginning, we had conversations about the fact that as an intermediary, as a re-granter, or we're actually not making the decision about who gets the grants, that's what the advisors are for. We have people within the field who are already doing the work, who are respected in the field making those decisions, not us as individuals. And that the first place to change is to, if they are the curators of the grant, then we're the curators of the curators, and our job, nothing will change if we are curating in the same way that everybody else does, right? We're not picking the EDs, we're not picking the artistic directors. Although I love it when somebody says, "Oh, you've had so many people of color curators," and I'm like, yes, because they're there. You're just not looking.
Meena
Exactly. Right. Yeah.
Quita
So, that is the first job in philanthropy is to look at what practices need to be changed in order to change the results.
Meena
I agree. I feel like that panel room, what that looks like is still, unfortunately, still very heavily kind of dependent on... Racially I think it's become a lot more diverse, but these hierarchical positions, I think is still leaning towards those people who are in power. But yeah, there's been a lot more examples of organizations that are thinking beyond that in terms of panel structure. But I feel like NTP was really early in radicalizing that, and our panel room looked so incredible. I loved it. Even from, yeah, it shifted a lot over the years.
Quita
In 2014, I was nowhere close to being where I wanted it to be, but we were getting there. We were starting to get there.
Meena
Yeah. I mean, it takes time. It's not going to happen overnight. Yeah, so that's how we met. And I'm sure the work that we've done together over the eight years will come out as we talk because there's just so many elements to it. And I feel we just did a evaluation for the National Theater Project, and one of the things I noticed was that, and this refers back to what you were saying earlier, a lot of things that we did were just the way we knew how to be in relationship with people. And so, it was inherent.
So, a lot of things were just done that way without really thinking about, well, I mean, there is great intention in it, but the intention is beyond just this NIFA world or the grant making, but just as people, who we are and in relationship to other people in relationship to the field. And so, the evaluation was a really good practice for me at least, to articulate the things that we were doing to be like, oh, yeah, no, we did this because of this intention and these are the results that came out of it. So, that was a really helpful practice for me. And there's a lot of cutting grass outside. I'm sorry if you hear the sound. It's very bad timing. But anyways, how did you find the evaluation process?
Quita
It's funny, everybody's like, oh, it's a great evaluation. And I'm like, yes and you don't know how anxious I was, how anxiety ridden I was because you intend certain things and it never turns out the way you intended. And I still see the progress. It still shows me the progress that we made from one place to the other, and to where we are. And it also shows where we still have to go. I mean, there's still a lot of work to be done, but it felt really good to be able to see that intentionality actually have result. And I think I'm at that age where I'm trying to figure out when am I retiring? Okay. So, it's just my little legacy. I moved the needle this much.
Meena
I mean, I feel like, yeah, I mean, I was telling you, I was talking to, I forget the name, I'll put it in the notes of this call, but the Alaskan grant maker that's part of the Ely partner and the trajectory that they look at is just so more vast. A trajectory of their transformation work is so much more vast than these kind of strategic planning, like five-year plans. It's like, well, we're looking at a 10,000-year span or the seven generations. I think yeah, that kind of thinking really helps me to, I don't know, well, I want to put pressure on myself.
I want to do things, I want to make impact. I want to change the current situation even better just for my offspring too, right? So, that's more immediate. But then giving myself that more long-term trajectory relieves me of this individualized pressure that I was giving, but rather I fit into this bigger collective big picture that everyone's working towards this, or at least the people I know are working towards this. And I'm one part of that, and my impact is here, but it also connects to everyone else's impact, so yeah.
Quita
Yeah, it's funny because people are talking a lot about emergent strategy and how one little change changes everything else. And that thinking is the kind of thinking that I grew up with because I grew up with the seven generations idea that you're in the middle and you're thinking generations forward and generations behind. And also, I remember being told very clearly, it took 500 plus years for them to get us into this mess. It's going to take us a long time to get out of it.
Meena
It's true.
Quita
Yeah,
Meena
It's true.
Quita
So, even when I was an environmental justice attorney, my whole goal was to work myself out of a job and knowing that it wouldn't happen in my lifetime.
Meena
Right. Well, philanthropy should be the same.
Quita
Exactly. Apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.
Meena
Well, okay, so we're already diving in I feel. So, we should get into it. I do want to say, aside from the work relationship, I feel like our relationship is beyond that, where we're a family. My child is part of your family. I am part of your family. You are part of mine. So, I feel like there's a deeper relationship here that impacts the way that we talk with each other. So, I just want to mention that too.
Quita
Yeah.
Meena
So, where do you want to dive in? Because we did come up with a bunch of things we want to tell philanthropy, things that we don't want to hear again. Yeah. Where do you want to start?
Quita
We can just start with that first prompt that we were given was what do you never want to have to say explain to an arts lender again? I was just, and I think I probably both feel the same way. Trust philanthropy means trust.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
Philanthropy itself can be so paternalistic. I trust you to do what you need to be done. But here, let me tell you how to do it.
Meena
I know better than you, although you're the expert, but yeah.
Quita
Yeah, yeah.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
And it goes back to that whole thing. You are the expert on your own life. Your community is your expert on the community. No one person is an expert on the community. The community is the expert. And we trust all kinds of other experts because they have letters after their name. They had that comma, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, and some of them out the door. We trust them, but that same kind of trust needs to be extended to the community. You don't go checking up on every attorney or every environmental scientist. So, when you say trust philanthropy, do the trust because that's the expert regardless of whether or not they have initials after their name. And that's what we hear a lot all the time. Oh, we're going to engage in trust philanthropy, but what does that really mean? What do you really mean by that? And are you really trusting? And if you're not, don't say you are.
Meena
Exactly. I think that thing about when you do trust the person who's in the community, let's say the grantee gets funded to do something, they know much more about the needs of the community, and they've built enough deep relationship and trust that if something shifts too, that's part of the process itself. And I feel like philanthropy, when you say trust philanthropy, I think that you need to trust the process itself. So, not just let's say the grantee got funding for this particular project, but through the process, they found that that was not particularly helpful, and they might want to shift direction. Of course, there should be communication, right? But I think if that is the direction that the community wants to go, trust that this person and this community knows better what they need. So, having that level of flexibility, I think is also part of this and sticking too much to this is the outcome you said you were going to do is not helpful.
Quita
Yeah, it's just not. And one, it's not trust.
Meena
No.
Quita
It means that you don't have a relationship with that grantee.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
You don't have a trust relationship with that grantee. And I think what I see often is, oh, well now we're going to do trust philanthropy. We're going to move into trust philanthropy. And they haven't built a relationship with the community, and the community doesn't trust them. So, trust is earned.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
So, I've had a recent experience with a small family foundation who's recognized that this relationship means that they have to be there and be able to say, "Okay, here's the money and I'm just going to be here to help you out if you need help. And I'm not giving you a one-time grant, and I really want to build this relationship." That's how you build trust philanthropy. You can't just go into it. You have to build it.
Meena
Yeah, I agree. And that communication, the open communication on both sides is really important. Which cannot be confused with the over-reporting though. Those are two different things. Communication, yes. Yes to communication. If something happens where the grantees encountering some issues and they're like, oh, shoot, this is not quite what we agreed on. Oh, is the funder going to be upset with me? That fear we want to eradicate. We want to have this space where they could be like, you know what? Can I come to you? Can you be my thought partner? Can you think this with me? Right? That's built on trust. But asking them to fill out floor reports in the midst of the process, and it has to be written and it has to be submitted through this thing and all this regulations around that, that's not the same thing.
Quita
No. And it's not like we're eliminating all reporting either.
Meena
No, no.
Quita
But there has to be a purpose to the reporting. And when I think about the NTP interim report, it's a report to us. It releases money to the grantee, but it also has ways in there to help think about, okay, this is where we are, where we're going from here? Are we ready to go to the next step? It is not necessarily about, oh, we did this, we did this, we did this.
Meena
Yeah. And we changed it too, that they could do it on the phone and we can fill it out for them because there was a restriction with the software that we were using. So, we do need to put it in here, but the flexibility could be in the actual process of receiving that information.
Quita
Right. Yeah. And I know you experienced this while you were with NTP. We've had many grantees where things have just not gone the way they thought they would.
Meena
Many.
Quita
And you have to be available and open to the idea that everything changes and you can't plan everything out. It's a long-term grant. It's essentially three years worth of work for each ensemble. And what was thought would happen at the beginning is subject to time and personnel change and life and all kinds of things. And if it doesn't adapt, then it wouldn't be relevant anymore.
Meena
Yeah, we did a lot of adjusting. I think this is something we'll talk about later too, but COVID times, which was really hard for artists and presenters, just the arts ecosystem. It was really hard. I feel like that's all we did was just to reach out, to be like, Hey, how are you doing? Can we talk? No expectations, just talk. But from there came up, this need for shifting the grant money to gen ops if that was needed. People are really having a hard time paying rent and surviving. If you can't survive, then you can't make art. You just can't. You just can't, so.
Quita
I think that goes back into one of those things that you never want to have to explain again, why gen ops is important.
Meena
Oh my gosh, yes.
Quita
You can't do anything if you can't turn the lights on.
Meena
You can't. There's the basic need pyramid. What is it called? There's a word for it, and I don't know these things. There's the basic stuff that needs to be met in order for people to feel like they can actually pursue these kinds of things like housing, food, basic things.
Quita
And our grant is in such a narrow scope, right? That we have to figure out what is the base of that, and the base of that is money to be able to do the work.
Meena
Yeah.
Quita
And if you end up having to spend it to turn the lights on, I really don't care. I trust you to pay your light bill.
Meena
Yeah. Well, this kind of segues into the next area that we were talking about, which is what does supporting the ecosystem really look like on so many levels? One of it that we talked about is this need for different types of funding in the field, right? So, these individual artists funding that is not restricted to projects. Great. Those are great. And also project-based funding that is specific to project. That's great too. And we don't have to go with just one or the other, but we should have both. Because the trend that we were talking about that we saw with the individual artists support is that artists end up using it for projects anyways. It's like, no. So, having both is good.
Quita
Having both is because an ecosystem is not one individual organism. An ecosystem is that organism, the organisms next to it, the things that are affecting those organisms, all of that. It's universal basic income. It's healthcare, childcare, all of those things, free public transportation. This a big pet peeve of mine. And so, all of those things are about supporting the ecosystem, and that's the ecosystem for artists, that's the ecosystems for executives, it's the ecosystem for everybody. Those things make it possible to at least thrive at a minimal basis. My grant isn't going to address all of that. NTP, the Creation and Touring Grant, the transition grant, all of the grants that we have are sort of trying to bite in it from a certain direction. It can't affect the whole thing, but it can affect this portion of it.
And when we're not supporting just one person making art in a room by themselves for themselves, we're supporting that artist, the artists that are working with them to create, we're supporting their families. The shop owner who sells them the cloth to make the backdrop, right? I mean, whatever it takes, but we're just one little piece of it. So, we have artist support, we have project support. We're on the project support end, but they have to work together. They can't be separate. And right now in the field, we have very few dedicated arts funders.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
And the idea of only moving to individual support means that you're focusing on putting the spotlight on one person and not on the other people and things that make it possible for that person to be visible. Coming from a theater background, there's maybe one person standing there on stage, but somebody's calling the cues and somebody built the set and somebody is running the lights and the sound and somebody's watching it. It is not a singular person. And that has been, I appreciate the swing to individual artist support because that was really lacking.
Meena
It was.
Quita
But not at the expense of that artist's ability to actually make work. And that's where I'm starting to feel like it's swinging too far.
Meena
Yeah.
Quita
Because if you give an artist a $50,000 grant, some of that will go to the artist because the artist still has to pay bills and all of that. But the artist is also going to say, "Okay, so how do I take this and use it to support the work that I'm making with these five people?"
Meena
Yeah, they'll pay the other artists while using that money.
Quita
Right?
Meena
Yeah, it's true. I literally just applied to a grant, which was for individual artists, but it's a ensemble work, so we have to decide who's going to apply for it. And it's one person that's officially receiving it, but it's for the ensemble, so we'll be splitting stuff. So, it doesn't support what we need in a real way. But that's the only thing that was available to us, so we applied for it. I feel like that's the other thing. Well, two things I wanted to point out from what you said. One is, one grant program can't be everything for everyone, and that's fine, right? The idea of ecosystem supporting an ecosystem also is from the philanthropy side that bunch of arts funders can come together to support the ecosystem from different directions. And that's fine, but it's important to be transparent about that, that you're not saying we're everything for everyone.
That's not true. We support this part of the ecosystem and we are focusing on this part, but we also acknowledge that all of these need to be supported, that I think is really important from what you said. And the other part is we've had difficulty explaining to some funders about we support ensemble, not just one person because of what you said and not because of how the grant is structured. And during the pandemic, there were some difficulties when we were trying to explain it's not just one person that heads this ensemble. It's literally for some ensembles, there's four people who are co-owners of this ensemble. So, there is no way that we can identify the one person and just lack of understanding within the field around what true ensemble practice is and could look like. And not all ensembles are that way, but the ones that we support tend to be that way. So, yeah.
Quita
Yeah, there are a couple of things in there though. Yeah. I mean, it's understanding what ensemble means, and maybe taking philanthropy could take a step back and look at itself, especially arts, philanthropy, if it were an ensemble, and this is your area, who's doing the work in the other area? Who are the people that you need to be talking to? Because this foundation is supporting this and we're supporting this. But if you look and you don't see anybody over here to support that, then what can you do as philanthropy, as a foundation? Do you need to take some portion of what you're doing and saying, okay, we're going to try and start supporting this area because we can, right? Until someone can come up and take over that. Or do you say, okay, well, I'm still just, this is where we're going to go and this is the part of the system we can affect, and that's all I'm going to do. There is no ensemble of arts philanthropists.
Meena
No.
Quita
And we're suffering because we don't have nationally funded arts. We have the NEA, which is very small and can only do a very narrow thing, but we don't have arts philanthropy in this country unless it is privately held.
Meena
Yeah, I think during COVID times, there were little groupings regionally that happened where a bunch of LA arts funders had opportunity to come together to do a grant program together around recovery, artist recovery. I know other states also had those kind of movements, and that's great. That's a great movement forward. I'm just wondering what is the learning from that and how do you keep replicating that? Right? And it could become, I think regionally is also important, but then maybe there could be a national level one that learns from each region to connect together. That could be really great. We've talked about even just for this theater field, just let's look at our little ecosystem here.
There's very few other funders that support the same type of work. So even that, we've been trying to cultivate relationship with the other funders, so that we can combine what are things that we can co-offer to each other through the other organizations. And those kind of efforts need support, need resources to develop, right? So yeah, I agree. And I'm hoping that we're starting to see a little bit of this ensemble movement, but I'm also worried that it will just disintegrate after this pandemic thing.
Quita
Yeah. I mean, yeah, because that was an emergency. It wasn't seen as we were reactive and not proactive. I guess this is another thing that it sort of relates back to what you don't want to hear anymore or really what you want to see, the hierarchical nature of philanthropy is really, really hard to get around. If you say, "Oh, we want to support distributive leadership," you have to be willing to give up power. You have to be willing to give up the full hierarchy. It doesn't mean that there won't ever be hierarchy. There will be hierarchy, but there will be a reason for it, and it will be clearly defined. And so, you're looking at it in terms of what building that ensemble of trust and leadership.
And so again, it goes back to that whole issue of trust. How do you get to that point if you don't model it, if you don't behave like it? Which is kind of one of the things that we also talked about, which is equity work for philanthropy, right? It's more than just, oh, I'm going to be more equitable or diversify my grantees. It's also about what are we doing internally to model that, and how are we sharing what we learned? I mean, this is always, and you've heard me say this has been my biggest problem with what NEFA is doing is we're doing a lot, but we're not sharing it. So, there's no model. And I think that's part of it, is that sense of urgency, which we saw during the pandemic. We got to get this out there. We got to get this out there. And the other thing is, I don't want to share what we're doing. It's not perfect yet.
Meena
Yeah, that's a big one.
Quita
Right. And nothing is ever perfect. There is no such thing as perfect. I have never made a perfect piece of jewelry. And if it's culturally, if it's perfect, there's something wrong with it, you invite a whole lot of trouble because it's perfect. That's not what Mandou needs. He doesn't need perfection. He needs the improvement.
Meena
And also the beauty that comes from that imperfection, I guess. I don't know what things are perfect, but yeah, it's such a strange concept.
Quita
And so, that white supremacy culture element of both urgency, it's urgent that we change our grantee pool right now, and we want to do it perfectly. And they don't work together.
Meena
No, they don't.
Quita
You get into this paralysis, and when you're in paralysis, ain't nobody going to trust you.
Meena
And we also talked about this idea of being in right relationship and to be in right relationship most of the time, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time. Sometimes to build trust, I've experienced, I curated a lot of the regional convenings that we did at NEFA for NTP, and we are a philanthropy organization coming into this region, and we made a point that we're going to that region rather than bringing people over. We physically went there, so that we can learn about the aesthetics and things that were happening in the region. But a lot of my work of that curation work started with and ended with building trust. That's all I did. And it took a long time, and sometimes it didn't happen during that time. I'll do a site visit, I'll talk ahead of time. I'll have an introduction done with somebody that they trust, that I trust.
We met in person and then we developed a relationship. And sometimes that's how the trust was built, and that was good. In some cases, I'll be honest, the regional convening happened. They came, and then afterwards, after the regional convening was done, it was like, okay, I see you. I see you. Okay. I can trust you. Now I can trust you. I should have invited more people before, but now I see, and that's fine. That was the speed that it had to go at. And I respect that, and I will continue to do my best to build that trust, but it is not something that I can will towards and it happens. It has to be mutual. It has to be slow. It may be that we step one step and then we take two steps back. That's fine. But it just requires this mutual agreement and work towards building trust, and that will lead to this being in right relationship with each other.
And that sense of urgency just gets in the way. And this idea of perfectionism, my gosh, I see it in the whole arts field. I was trained in the classical music field, and perfectionism is one of the things that people value, right? They're like perfect technique, perfect skill, no mistakes in what you play. That was how people defined what was excellent. That's another word. It's like, eh. But yeah, and in this work, in this equity work, there's so much fear of sharing something when it doesn't look good where there's so much learning that could happen in the process itself and in the sharing of, we struggled with this. We tried to do this, but we struggled, but this was the best decision we could make that right now. And that's fine. That's good. I want to hear that struggle, right?
Quita
And putting it out there, I know. Putting it out there opens you up to the possibility that somebody else might have a solution.
Meena
Yes.
Quita
Right. Just because you were stuck here and you couldn't see out of that situation doesn't mean that somebody else hasn't seen that situation and worked on it and figured it out. But if you don't share that, you're there, nobody's going to know to come in and say, "Hey, guess what? Have you tried this? This is a great idea. It worked for us. It might not work for you, but here's what we did. Here's what happened." And who knows? It could work, it might not work, but at least you've extended that opportunity for you to learn and for them to learn, right? Nobody learns anything from the perfect.
Meena
No, that's not how my child learns.
Quita
They learn to imitate.
Meena
Yeah. Yes,
Quita
You can imitate, but that's not learning.
Meena
No. The other part too, about sharing the struggles, yes, you may have solutions that you can share. The other part is even just to see that another organization's going through the same struggle as you makes you feel like you're not alone in this work. Because I feel like that lack of communicating the learnings or even the process creates an alienation or siloing, and it feels like each organization is doing this work on their own. Whereas this is an opportunity that we could build this idea of ensemble that we're all working towards it together. We're struggling. You're not alone. Can we share knowledge and work together? So, I feel like that, yeah, it's just like we build community. Yeah.
Quita
Yeah. I know, magic wand.
Meena
But yes. Oh my gosh. I know. We can go on for, I don't know, probably hours more, but we have 10 minutes left, so I wanted to get to this.
Quita
We could, and we have.
Meena
Especially if you have a drink or two. So, what is the hope that you have? What have you seen that gives you hope in philanthropy?
Quita
Compared to what I saw in 2006, where they were deliberately looking to have folks like me come in as change makers because it was so desperate for change. We're not there anymore. I look at who goes to the grant makers in the arts conference. I look at who's on the board of grant makers in the arts. I look at the efforts that GIA is making around racial equity, and who stayed in the room, right? Who stayed when they said, "This will be the direction we're taking." And it's a lot. They lost far fewer members than I would've thought.
So, I do see a big change. We have a long, long way to go, but nobody would ever have said anything about equity and out loud in rooms in 2006. In fact, it was still being talked about in terms of diversity, right? And not equity, and even equity. I feel like equity might be missing a good portion of that. I think the right relationship with each other and with our communities and with our grantees, I think that's kind of where we're going, but we're not quite at whatever the next new term is. So, equity is still what I'm using. But I think nobody would've ever talked about that in 2006. And so in 17 years, I have seen a lot, a lot of change. I see some of the changes, not just manifesting in who the grantees are. I do know philanthropic organizations who are working on solidarity economy. You can't do solidarity economy work from the top down.
It has to be within the community. I see a lot of, and certainly during the pandemic, maybe we need to give folks gen ops or maybe we need to help with childcare. That would never have been considered an allowable expense, right? And just that term allowable expense. What do you mean? If it's an expense, it's an expense whether or not you're going to allow it. The accountants are ruling the philanthropic world, and I think, and if we've come this far in 17 years, I'm excited about what is going to happen as the guard changes, as people who are younger than me start taking over, right? I can't wait. I'm excited. Oh, let me tell you, I'm so excited about our new executive director at NEFA, because I see this as a sign of what can happen. Boards can change, and organizations can move in the right direction. And I think as long as we remember that, then I think that there is a change that's happening and there's more change to come. And I think old people like me need to get out of the way.
Meena
Oh, your wisdom though.
Quita
I don't plan on going away. I plan on getting out of the way.
Meena
Yeah. Well, yeah. I hope you get time to do what you want to do.
Quita
I will.
Meena
Yes, you will. Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. That's hopeful. That all feels hopeful.
Quita
Well, now that you're on the outside, how do you see it? Where do you see things going?
Meena
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing we as a field don't do very well is to celebrate the things that we have done well. I think you're right that we have come a really long way, and I feel like we don't take much time to look back to be like, Hey, wait, we were over there and we're here now. I mean, we want to go over there, but we are here. This is how much we have done, right? And even just for working as a consultant with different arts organizations, not just philanthropy, this is a common thing that they tend to forget and they get really overwhelmed with like, oh my gosh, we're not doing it well. We still have so much to do. And there's been a lot more energy around having a journey mapping of the equity work that organizations have done so that they can reflect back on what they have done and re-energize to keep moving forward.
And that could be used to onboard new staff and onboard new board members. These are, it might sound, I don't know, silly or something, but celebrating is part of this work. If we don't do that, we're just struggling through and it's just too hard. We need to celebrate. And so, that's one thing that I'm thinking about. And yeah, I have hope. I have seen glimpses of what you said where things that were learned in COVID, hopefully continuing to shift more long-term processes for funders. So, there's been recently, there was four funders that gave funding to artists in California, in LA area, I think expanded more than LA too. But they did a joint info session with all those four programs, and they were really talking about how to reach people, not the usual people, but the people who usually don't get this kind of funding.
Maybe people who don't even describe themselves as arts workers, but people who contribute to the cultural ecosystem of this country, the state. And so, they were looking at shifting the ways that they create the application process, the criteria, how they're doing outreach, even how they do office hours, and those things that I see, give me hope that there's some shift and the strike that's happening. There's just lots of movements happening right now, right? And so, I feel like there is hope here. And anyway, I think it's time we end here. Yeah. But thank you so much for doing this Quita, it was nice to chat with you.
Quita
Oh, you're welcome. [inaudible 00:58:23] so good to see you too.
Meena
Good to see you too. Yeah. Well, we'll do more, what is the word? I can't think right now. I was thinking that we can do this conversation further with drinks. Yeah-
Quita
That's good enough.
Meena
Yeah, just a little different vibe than this one.
Quita
Yeah. Soon, soon.
Meena
Soon, soon. Yes.
Quita
Yeah, I'll be able to travel again by November.
Meena
Okay. Okay. Well, we'll do this. We're going to do this. But yeah, thank you so much for today. Thank you for your time
Quita
Thank you for asking me.
Meena
Yeah, always. Okay, I'm going to stop the recording.
So, as we leave the space close out the space, I wanted to offer an intention setting meditation that I want to invite all of you to join me on. So, an intention is a decision to do something, right? You may not be able to fully act on your intention right now, but maybe you can take a small step towards it. Sometimes we talk about holding an intention. For example, we may hold the intention of eating better or being more healthy, more active, physically active in the near future. And it may happen today, but it may not. Regardless the key is to keep the mindset that you will at some point take steps to doing or accomplishing your intention of eating better or being more physically active, et cetera. And no matter how small the steps or how long it takes, even just thinking about it is a step in the right direction. And more often than not, making small adjustments over time often can have the significant effect of helping you connect with your intentions.
So, I'm going to guide this meditation. Please participate if you are able and if you would like, and hopefully you'll find it helpful today. So, I invite you to firmly place your feet or any part of your body that is touching the ground or the floor. You could be sitting on the floor, standing as well. I offer you to close your eyes or lower your gaze. Let's all place one hand on your stomach and other hand on your heart, and just take the time to feel the warmth of your hands in those two places. And take a deep breath in through your nose and just feel the air fill up your lungs and feel your stomach move. Then release your breath through your mouth. Let it all out. Let's breathe in through your nose again. Feel the breath bring energy to your stomach and to your heart every time you breathe in and release the air through your mouth. You can sigh if you want another deep breath through your nose and out through the mouth.
Now take some time to ponder what intentions might you set today? As a person that works in the arts funding field, what is an intention you're going to set for yourself? What is the intention you're bringing to your community and your constituents? What is the intention you are bringing to your team, your organization, to the field? What changes do you want to see? How is your intention connected to that change? You want to see what steps both big and small, are you taking towards that intention? Think on it. Consider setting an intention right now. What intention feels right for you? What would you like to do to help yourself learn and grow? Let your body relax and see what type of intention might come to you. If you don't feel ready to set an intention, that's fine. Just starting this practice is enough. However, if you are able, allow an intention to arise. Take all the time you need. If you need to pause this video, please do that.
And once you have your intention, if you are able, write your intention down. Once you've written your intention down, close your eyes again. Notice what it feels like in your body when you write down the intention. Is your body tense? Is it relaxed? Is it somewhere in between? Just notice without judgment. Now, with that intention in your mind, breath in through your nose, then as you release the air from your mouth, release the tension, the hesitation, the worry along with the air. Again, breathing through your nose and bring love and warmth to your intention. And we will release that air with a big sigh, and you can open your eyes. I hope this intention carries you through your work, your life, in relationship building, in trust building, and furthering your work, in your work place, and also in your personal life. Thank you for participating. Bye.
ABOUT THE AUTHORS
Photo by Marian Taylor Brown
Quita Sullivan (Montaukett/Shinnecock) is the program director for Theater at New England Foundation for the Arts (NEFA) where she leads the National Theater Project, supporting the creation and touring of devised, ensemble-based theater. She holds Bachelor and Master of Arts degrees in Theatre from Knox College and SUNY Stony Brook, respectively, as well as a Juris Doctorate from Wayne State University Law School. Before law school, she worked as a Stage Manager at ETA in Chicago and was the first stage manager for ETA’s production of Checkmates by Ron Milner, directed by Woodie King, Jr. She later worked at Great Lakes Performing Artist Associates, a not-for-profit artist management office, creating contracts, and managing booking and performing fees for musicians in the Great Lakes area. After law school, she practiced environmental justice law for 10 years in Detroit and Boston. She is a senior fellow of the Environmental Leadership Program and an alumna of the artEquity Facilitator Training. She is also a former Associated Grant Makers Diversity Fellow, the mission of which was to identify, recruit, and cultivate emerging practitioners of color who represent the next generation of philanthropic leaders and offer them training, support and strong community. She continues to work to support equity and inclusion at all levels of theater and grant making. She is a frequent speaker on supporting Indigenous Artists and Land Acknowledgement. Prior to joining NEFA as a staff member, Sullivan was an advisor for NEFA’s Native Arts Program. Outside of work, she continues to develop her own artistic talents as a beadwork artist. Sullivan is Of Counsel to and an enrolled member of the Montaukett tribe.
Meena Malik is a musician, arts consultant, facilitator, mediator and a coach, who is known as a mover and shaker re-defining what conversations around equity in the arts look like. An alumna of the artEquity Facilitator Training, a member of the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute Facilitation Cohort and a Senior Associate at the Aspire Group, Meena is actively engaged in a national community of practice for anti-oppression work in the arts. Formerly as the Senior Program Manager of Theater at the New England Foundation for the Arts (NEFA), she managed the National Theater Project (NTP), a grant program that supports the creation and touring of devised ensemble theater work. Meena organized and led “Beyond Orientalism: The Boston Forum” in 2017 and is a co-founder and steering committee member of Boston’s first API (Asian Pacific Islander) Arts Network. She was a founding member and performer with Voci Angelica Trio, an international band that created a musical fusion of world folk and classical music, for 14 years. With Voci Angelica, Meena toured to the USA’s East Coast, Midwest and Southern regions, Canada, Japan, and South Korea. Meena holds a Masters in Vocal Performance from New England Conservatory and a Masters in Arts Administration from Boston University.
