Partnership and Solidarity with Intermediaries
with Sage Crump and Quita Sullivan
Recorded August 9, 2023
Intermediary organizations hold a special role in the arts and culture sector. They are multifaceted partners with intimate connections to the artists they serve. However, as the sector continues to shift to meet the needs of artists, how can the sector respond in partnership and solidarity?
We are glad to hear from Sage Crump, director of Racial Justice and Movement Building, National Performance Network (NPN), and Quita Sullivan, program director for Theater, New England Foundation for the Arts (NEFA). They will discuss what is at stake and propose a shared vision for the future.
To listen to the full episode, click here.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Welcome to a podcast by Grantmakers in the Arts, a national membership association of public and private arts and culture funders. I'm Sherylynn Sealy, GIA's senior program manager. Intermediary organizations hold a special role in the arts and culture sector. They are multifaceted partners with intimate connections to the artists they serve. However, as the sector continues to shift in order to meet the needs of artists, how can the sector respond in partnership and solidarity? We are glad to hear from Sage Crumb, director of Racial Justice and Movement Building at National Performance Network and Quita Sullivan, the program director for Theater at New England Foundation for the Arts. They will discuss what is at stake and propose a shared vision for the future. So welcome to the GIA podcast.
Sage Crump:
Thank you so much, Sherylynn.
Quita Sullivan:
Thank you. [foreign language], Sherylynn.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Oh, you're so welcome. So before we get started, for folks who may not know you, can you take a minute to introduce yourselves and let us all know how you're showing up today?
Quita Sullivan:
Sure. [foreign language]. Senior program director for Theater, New England Foundation for the Arts. [foreign language]. Hi. Quita Sullivan. In my language, my name is [foreign language]. I am turtle and whale clans of the Montaukett and Shinnecock nations. I'm also Black and I live here in Shawmut, also known as Boston. And I am showing up today actually feeling really grateful that I live where I live. One, because it is the lands of my kin, the Nipmuc Wampanoag and Massachusetts people, those nations are kin to my nations. So I've always feel at home here, but also because when healthcare is such a predominant need in this country, to live in a place where some of the best health centers are located has made my life so much more blessed with all the things going on right now. And so I'm just very, very grateful to be here.
Sherylynn Sealy:
That's great. Thanks, Quita.
Sage Crump:
Hi, I'm Sage Crump. My pronouns are she and her. I am a cultural strategist, writer, facilitator, and director of Racial Justice and Movement Building at the National Performance Network. I'm showing up today really thoughtful about this conversation we're about to have and I'm really grateful I get to have it with the both of you all on this podcast. I think that in this political moment, in this political climate in which we live in, the opportunity to talk about the role of intermediaries, how we shift the tools that we have at our hands to fight back authoritarians and fascism within our sector as an art and culture sector is not to be taken lightly. And I don't, and I'm really grateful to be able to do this with my good friend Quita, with you, Sherylynn, and on this podcast at Grantmakers in the Arts.
Sherylynn Sealy:
That's awesome. Thank you so much both of you for being here. So just to get started, what is at stake right now with intermediaries in the US? And even before that, the word intermediary is so broad in the philanthropic sector. If you could both just offer some context. What is an intermediary? What is considered an intermediary because there's so many different types of funders that can fall under that umbrella.
Quita Sullivan:
This is Quita. I will say first of all, the term intermediary doesn't just mean funder, doesn't just mean a funder between other funders and artists. Often, intermediaries are those who are exactly that. Sometimes there's the interlocutor between community and others. You can be an intermediary between... This is the former legal head [inaudible 00:04:32]. You can be an intermediary between parties. So it's a very broad term that doesn't do justice to the multiplicity of the types of organizations. NEFA is New England Foundation for the Arts, is an intermediary because it does several things. One, yes, it does receive grants and give out grants, but also because we are often the link between communities and between artists and that's the primary role of an intermediary is to be that linking factor. It is not to give out funds, it is not to be a membership organization. It's really about how are you building connections between one party, one individual, one organization, and another party individual organization. This is how I see my role, is to actually be a connector, not a blockage between parties.
Sherylynn Sealy:
That's great.
Sage Crump:
I appreciate that so much, Quita. The piece that's sticking with me is around first of all, where you left off, not a blockage. And I think this idea that intermediaries are somehow in the middle, and middle meaning in the way, I think is getting more traction that doesn't fully understand what we are doing in terms of building relationships and connectors. When I think about intermediaries, I think about, yes, there are folks who are funding directly artists and things of that nature, but I also think about membership organizations and member service organizations. Like you said, anyone who's connecting folks to themselves or to each other. So to me, these are, when we're talking about intermediaries, we're talking about our spaces of collectivity, we're talking about our spaces where we gather, we learn, we're connected, how we find our folk and build together. And in this moment, it feels really imperative and exciting to talk about intermediaries and their role in, I'll say in the labor sector.
It was at one point, with the growth of unions, where the different workers got together and they're like, "Oh, we have an institution that is not blocking things for us." We won't talk about the history of the labor movement. But in its inception, it was about how do we build a collective voice? How do we amplify and build collective power for the needs of us all? And I think intermediaries, in the way we're talking about this in our sector, can be serving the same purpose. What we often read though is that intermediaries are an extension of philanthropic institutions. They do things that funders don't have time or space or room to do. And I think that this is an opportunity in this moment, in this sort of open time to really get clear on the instruments that we have. Intermediaries are a tool for our collective organizing. They're a place for us to grow politically together, they're a place for us to build power and really step up our place in the transformation of the world we live in.
Quita Sullivan:
I knew this was going to happen. You would say something and then I would [inaudible 00:08:24].
Sage Crump:
That's how it always happens, Quita.
Quita Sullivan:
We've just come off of this long period of siloization. We were siloed in our homes, we were siloed in what we could do. We weren't able to be collective in the same way that we wanted to be collective. And that is what an intermediary does to me, is it helps break down those silos so that we're not always, okay, I have to go off over here and I have to figure out how to support myself and I have to figure out how I'm going to make this work and then I'm going to connect it. And I don't know how to connect with all of those people. We just came out of that, and I really, really believe that the connection between us is what kept us sane during that time period, and it's what we desire most right now, is to feel those connections, whether they're in person or virtual or hybrid or intermittent. Whatever it is, the role of the intermediary is to foster that connection. And right now, that connection is needed more than, I think, ever before.
Sage Crump:
I would agree.
Sherylynn Sealy:
That's awesome. And I appreciate some of the key points within all that you both said, and I'll repeat them now. You said breaking down silos, fostering connections, understanding intermediaries, knowing that they are tools to build power and being a part of the transformation of the world that we live in. And those are quotes from both of you all kind of mumble, jumbled together. So for funders who don't consider themselves to be in that particular position, even though after hearing both of you, it's like once you're a connector, you're an intermediary in some way, but if you're not considering yourself an intermediary in the philanthropic sector, how can those funders pivot strategically in order to continue partnering with the exact group of service organizations and funders, intermediaries, to build that power that you just mentioned and to ensure that artists are receiving what they need?
Sage Crump:
I will say, I think first and foremost, keep supporting intermediaries. I think there's an assessment that can be made of the field right now that intermediary service organizations are no longer as relevant, viable or necessary, and folks can fund directly to artists. And I always say whenever I'm having this conversation with someone, I am never going to be a person who says, "Don't fund artists directly."
Sherylynn Sealy:
Right, right.
Sage Crump:
What I will say though is intermediaries and spaces of collectivity allow us to reach more people, allow us to grow along an arc together in our development, allow us to make an assessment. One of the things that Quita said around silos that just was so relevant to me is how often you talk with someone and they think they're the only one. They think they're the only one that's experiencing something. And if we're going to engage in systems change, we need to have spaces to make systems level analysis. And those are our collective spaces that allow us to do that. And so I think supporting our ability to have space and breadth to make those, to have time to understand the field and trend and be a co-conspirators, comrades, partners in this with us as we think about how power, and not just within our sector and across different types of organizations, but really, what does it mean to build power for a world that has dignity, safety, and belonging for all of us?
Sherylynn Sealy:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Quita Sullivan:
So yes to the funding, absolutely, because those convening spaces, those... Even if you don't want to say you're funding an intermediary, you could be funding their convening function, you could be funding that gathering, their information, resource sharing functions. You don't have to say, "Okay, I'm going to fund all of this." Now, saying that, I do want everyone who thinks they can fund just those programs to remember that it takes humans to do that work and it takes light and power and all of those things that make it possible. You can't run a program if you can't turn on your lights flat out.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Of course.
Quita Sullivan:
So general operating support for artists and for intermediaries is critical. But I would ask those funders who say they don't want to fund intermediaries and only want to do direct funding to individual artists, not to stop funding the individual artists because that is critical. But what I really am concerned about is that by funding the individual artist, we're getting back into that system where it was the large organizations that were getting the funding. The MFAs, the Museums of Science, the Museum of Natural History. They were getting large amount of money and the people who made up the work, the smaller organizations weren't getting funded. There is no funder in this country that could fund every single individual artist, therefore, they're going to be funding only a few, a very small percentage. And it feels like you have to rise to a certain level in order to receive that funding.
And if that's the case, we're back into the same system that we've been trying to change. We're back into the chosen few who get a grant, and then you don't have any way to build the strength of the others who are not the chosen few. And that's the concern that I have. If you say you're not going to fund intermediaries, how are you then addressing the inequities in the system that are reinforcing this exceptionalism, this idea of only one way of excellence because you're funding only particular artists? And it's a whole ecosystem. We are trying to build an equitable arts ecosystem and we are a long way away from that. And if you're only funding this artist, this artist wants to make work with other artists. So that grant that you gave that artist may go to support that artist, but that artist is also paying the person that they're working with. So it is an ecosystem and you can't separate the artist from the rest of the system and expect the system to thrive.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Great.
Sage Crump:
Thank you, Quita. I also want to make an invitation to folks who may never have thought about intermediaries or... This conversation is like, "Wow, this is all brand new. I haven't not funded them, I've just never funded them at all. I don't know what you mean." Back to where you said it, Quita, around this word, intermediaries, also meaning around places where people are connecting others. So when you're thinking about even just your own guidelines or your own... Rather, I shouldn't say rather, that within your funding perspective in your lens, how are we supporting folks who are building connection? How are we supporting folks who are... Whether they're a whole organization that's funding a bunch of other artists or whether it's an... Or how do our systems move us away from this white supremacist nature of individualism and more towards collectivity over and over again?
Sherylynn Sealy:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was actually the perfect segue, Sage, into our next question. So what are some of your short-term and long-term hopes for the philanthropic community? Whether you break it down by funders, intermediaries, artists kind of speak more broadly, but yeah, what are some of your hopes?
Sage Crump:
I feel like I keep sliding in on Quita's coattails. But I do, as part of the Department of Racial Justice and Movement Building, we take the movement building piece really, really seriously at NPN. And so part of what our hopes are is that ecosystem to begin to build it in a way that we actually see it and we see each other and we are co-conspirators together in what's possible so that it's not just this sector. It's not like philanthropy over here, intermediaries here, artists here, but really, if this is the whole garden, how do you sure you're planting herbs next to tomato plants that make sense? How are we connecting each other? We really want to think about that because we're at a moment where scale matters, where our ability to actually support what's happening locally in individual spaces, but also how those spaces get interconnected and scale up so we can see what transformation has looked like, so we can see what possibilities are available.
I think that's one of the really important points in this moment where folks may feel like they are still locked into ways of being because they haven't seen anything else yet or haven't felt like they could try something else to be in... First of all, we know when you're trying something with other people, you got a little bit of cover, you feel a little riskier when your friends are around. In my 20s, that went left, but now, I think it could be helpful for movement building. You feel like your chest gets a little puffed out a little bit and you're like, "Oh, I'm not doing this by myself. I'm doing this with some folks. Let's try this new thing." So my first hope right now is that we really begin to seed this ecosystem in a way that folks turn towards each other and we begin to experiment together.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yes.
Quita Sullivan:
Adding to that, one of my hopes is that philanthropy, as a whole, become less risk averse. It is not about, "Oh, this person is the most excellent artist." or "This ensemble has the most perfect method of devising." It's really about can we take a chance and what happens when we take that chance and we bring people together to be co-conspirators? Some of the best conversations that I have had with funders have been about, well, let's think about this. If this is what we're seeing, if this is what we're noticing, then what can we do? We don't have to solve the whole problem, but what can we do within the sphere to help change that and then be public about it whether you fail or whether you succeed?
If you fail, someone else may have had the answer to that. If you succeed, you may be inspiring somebody else. But if you are unwilling to take the risk, then nothing happens. My hope really is that we all learn to be better risk-takers, that we all learn that it is okay to fail, that we get out of the white supremacy perfectionism mode, which we all find ourselves in. One of my friends, and I'm not the first one to say this, and I know this comes with therapy, but if something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly.
Sage Crump:
I love that.
Quita Sullivan:
Because it's worth doing flat out.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah.
Sage Crump:
I love the way we're landing on the importance of experimentation, and particularly in this moment, Quita, I think I'm thinking, listening to you about the Marxist philosopher Antonio Gramsci talks about the interregnum, the time between the times. When something is fading and something is being born and there's that space in there where we don't actually know what's going to happen, right? There's no roadmap for this moment that we're in, so we have no choice but to experiment if we're going to find a way forward. If not, then what happens is we'll drag the old and the new won't get to be born.
And what we have all said is the world we live in right now is not the world we want. I mean, I think... Well, I shouldn't say we all. I'm being hyperbolic. The folks I'm looking at, and I would hope the folks listening to this podcast believe that the world needs to change at its basis. And part of what figuring out how the world needs to change, what we need to learn, what is possible, is about experimentation and that the spaces that we're talking about that we're not experimenting in silos, but collectively.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Are there any particular examples of this type of experimentation that you've already experienced?
Sage Crump:
I'll say I think we're in the time of practice. I think we're trying to scale up, skill up, and connect enough to try and try and find something. I will say some of the places that I'm really curious about around their work are organizations like A Blade of Grass that when their founder left and they didn't have any [inaudible 00:23:44] and the board members were like, "Okay, but what do we need to be in this moment?" Rather than just kind of hustling up to gather more funding to just keep doing the same thing, they took a pause to do some listening sessions. Like, "What can we be?" Or I think about the network of ensemble theaters and their engagements with this sort of economic sector like co-ops.
So there are these what I feel like are nascent beginnings of trying and experimenting and connecting in new and different ways with other folks who are both in our sector or outside of our sector, who also feel like we are value aligned and we have a vision for the world, maybe. I feel like I'm being hyperbolic again, but there's a vision that something else is possible. [inaudible 00:24:40] possible, and that the experiments are beginning to happen around that. And I'm sure there are things happening in cities all the time that we don't know about. But in terms of when I think about visionary, part of what it feels like to me coming out of the last five years of what I call our cultural disruption, which includes the pandemic, it includes racial reckonings, is that we are in a moment of assessment to figure out what our pivots and what our plans could and should be. What have we learned over the last five years? What has happened? Go ahead, Quita. I saw you.
Quita Sullivan:
Yay for Afro and indigenous futurism, right? I'm all over it right now. And for the combination Afro-indigenous futurism as well, all three of them. I have been involved in several efforts lately where I see a lot of visioning happening that I think is radical, is visionary and has a lot of potential for changing the way things are. There is within many of the indigenous arts communities, you keep hearing land back, but the understanding of the vision of what that means, it doesn't mean necessarily that y'all go back to wherever you came from. Although sometimes there's some individuals, I wish they would. But it's things like are we looking at the system of arts and agriculture and land and health and all of those things are intertwined.
And certainly for us, culturally, they are not separate. I was in conversation with my language instructors. I'm like, "We don't have a word for music. We don't have a word for theater. We don't have a word for artists." Those are all things because they are a part of who we are and how we exist in the world. And I'm seeing a lot of folks trying to think across these divisions that have siloed our ability to move forward as a culture, as a society, as a nation, if you want. As y'all know, I'm not a big fan of the idea of the United States because one, not United, and two, it's all Native country.
Sage Crump:
Facts.
Quita Sullivan:
Yeah. And it's those kinds of efforts where people are saying, "Wait, but I know this person who is working on this farm, but it's an art farm." And "Oh, yeah, this person over here has just started up a land-based residency on the reservation." That's the kind of cross-sector, cross-cultural things that can be supported, and that's what an intermediary is about.
Sage Crump:
I love that. Quita, you're making me think about a brilliant artist collective in Pittsburgh, back to your question, Sherylynn, about people who are doing things. They're called BOOM Concepts. And BOOM are a artist collective, they commission, they do residencies, all the things that you're like [inaudible 00:28:21] a great arts organization would be doing.
Sherylynn Sealy:
It's okay. It's okay.
Sage Crump:
I got it.
Sherylynn Sealy:
You got it.
Sage Crump:
And also, they have bought plots of land that have come up as part of the ability. And so what does that mean around how we think about our arts organizations? To me, when I think about them, and I was listening to you, Quita, that again back to sometimes folks are set aside because they don't seem artsy enough or folks don't understand. We are art and culture. Art and culture. That's not just about an artistic expression or product. It's about the culture, it's about the zeitgeist, it's about the air, it's about the collective spaces. I was in a conversation with Kenneth Bailey of Design for Social Impact up in Boston, and we were talking about aesthetics and beauty and that as part of neighborhood development. There's so many things that as a sector, we could be about in relationship to the movements and the calls for justice at this time. And I think our connections with each other, our connections with folks who are working in other spaces bring more to us rather than saying that that takes away from someone.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm going to shift gears very slightly. I don't know if it's an entire shift because we were just talking about movements and building and building coalition, and so wondering if there is a political or advocacy lens that folks should consider while discussing and moving on the topic of needs of intermediaries and how the sector is shifting as regards to intermediaries?
Quita Sullivan:
There are a number of movements within philanthropy that I think are starting to address some of these. One of the solidarity economy movement. My favorite thing about philanthropy is here, let me give you some money. Right? No. It's about moving in solidarity with the people that you are in service to, your community, your family. If you look at family kinship, larger, what does that mean? What are you contributing to build that solidarity and build that growth? I think that has the potential for a lot of political advocacy as well because it is a systems approach to philanthropy and I am excited to see more of this happening, more attention being paid to it.
I think it's always been there, but I don't think that it has had the same amount of attention as it has been getting recently. And I think that's really important. That's one of those things. But I also think it's important to think about... Again, let's go back to the ecosystem model. You wouldn't have to give these huge awards to artists if our society paid everyone a wage, provided healthcare, provided transportation, provided childcare, provided for the basic things that make a society thrive, let alone be productive because I really hate that, this false productivity thing.
But that, that's where intermediaries are also making a difference. And if you support intermediaries to make those differences, maybe we can move towards a universal wage, maybe we can move to universal childcare. I mean, I'm grateful my child is grown, but my child's also an actor and would totally benefit from a universal [inaudible 00:33:01]. It's a gig economy for our artists. And if we're going to have a culture based on a gig economy for artists or for anyone else, then we have to make it possible for those people to be alive in order to do that gig economy.
Sage Crump:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think this conversation around artists as workers and not artists as some exceptional class is a whole nother podcast. We can also get into that on episode two.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yes.
Sage Crump:
I think what's coming up for me is just really as someone who uses the word political a lot, I talk a lot political analysis, I talk about politics, I talk about... I want to be clear that I'm not referencing governmental state structures. When I say politics, when I say political, I mean society's arrangements, the arrangements of agreements amongst people to move in a certain way. So back to the offering of... A political lens would be something like, oh, we're thinking about supporting folks who are building connections in new ways, because we know connections are as... I often quote activist organizer, Yolo Akili, that isolation is a space in which oppression thrives. So if oppression thrives in isolation, then a political intention is to work with spaces that grow collectivity, connection, and relationship with each other.
So when I talk about a political lens, that's what I mean. And so I want to encourage folks to be thoughtful about the world we live in and what we're doing through our actions. I agree with you, the funding is helpful, it's important, but how it's used makes a difference. There's a brilliant Black feminist, one of the founders of the Combahee River Collective, Barbara Smith, and she said a couple of years ago that we've kept the identity and lost the politics. We've kept the who, but we've actually lost the how and the why.
So you have to have an analysis of what is problematic in order to build your political lens, to build something that either is in tension engagement and contradiction with it, or is like, I see it, I'm going to do this other thing instead. But to not have that moment of clarity is to continue to replicate systems, is to continue to replicate them with different people at the helm and in different spaces. So if I say, "Is there a political advocacy lens that I want to offer?" It is to spend some time in thought about the world we live in and why it looks the way it does so that we can all be clear about how we need to move within it and what that's going to build towards.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah.
Quita Sullivan:
Sage, it reminds me of that pause. Where is the pause? The pause where we think about what we have done, what has been done, who has done it. And in that pause, how do we move forward into something new, the interregnum, the pause, whatever that moment is. And we saw this at the beginning of the pandemic too. We're so anxious to move quickly, to resolve situations quickly that we forget that politics is actually about the polit part, it's about the people part, and we need that moment to step back and not... The sense of urgency right now is out of this world. And if we can't do what Sage just talked about, stepping back, doing our analysis, thinking and dreaming about the future, we're just going to keep being that gerbil on the hamster wheel.
I mean, we're just going to keep on going, keep on going, and people will continue to throw money at things without thinking about what is the effect of what they're doing. What is the effect? What is the effect if you are withdrawing money from this part of society or of this sector? If you want to think about the arts sector. If you are withdrawing from this part, how is it affecting everything else? And that takes time to think about. You can't just make a snap decision about that. You have to step back and look and actually see what is going on.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah. Thanks for that, both of you. And just as we bring the podcast to a close, are there any opportunities that you can share out where folks can continue to engage in this conversation amongst other people or any final thoughts that you want folks to just kind of reflect on?
Quita Sullivan:
I do. As a member of the GIA Board, I do want to remind people that we do have a conference coming up where [inaudible 00:38:57] are going to be discussed. I am co-facilitating a round table at 8:30 AM.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Bright and early.
Quita Sullivan:
Bright and early on November 7th, talking about intermediaries, right? Because this is the start of the conversation, or we're not quite at the beginning of the conversation at this point because things have been happening, but we are at a point in the conversation where we need to take a step back and have the conversation. So I welcome people to join us in San Juan in Puerto Rico to have this conversation. And while it's one round table, I guarantee the conversations could be going on around it all during the conference because I think a lot of people are very concerned about what they're seeing as this step back from funding connection.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Sure, sure. Thanks, Quita.
Sage Crump:
Yeah. I feel like I say this all the time. Start a book club.
Sherylynn Sealy:
Yes.
Sage Crump:
Shout out Nonprofit Quarterly did a piece called Power in the Changing World of Intermediaries, April 1st, 2021. You can find it if you search their archives. And it talks about the relationship between intermediaries and social justice work. And it's telling that of all the... When they say intermediaries, you don't see folks in our sector in this conversation that they were writing about in 2021. And I think there's an opportunity for us to take 30 minutes of your staff meeting, pull this out, read it together, wrestle together, call some colleagues. I call Sherylynn and Quita, a bunch of other folks on a regular basis. There's this thing I don't understand. In my head, I need to talk it out. Really be engaged in trying to figure it out. And don't let feelings of shame or under development stop you from being in conversation with people about where you're trying to go and what you're trying to learn.
In addition to the conference, there are resource on GIA's page. NPN sends out our resources and our newsletter. Begin to look around and find things to read that may be related directly to art and culture support and also maybe not. But how do we then look at it and say, "There's something in this here though that we can figure out so that we can be in alignment in kinship with others who are working to transform the world." And if you're looking for a place to sort of prime your pump a little bit around what you might want to learn and what we need to be thinking about. I'm also going to offer the GIA Conference.
NPN is partnering with GIA to do a pre-conference called Making Meaning of this Moment. So much like I was talking about, how do we understand where we are, what has happened, what has moved, and collectively, what makes sense around how we move next? And certainly, we, I'm looking at Quita, me, Sherylynn, we've got some ideas about that. But again, it's about being in conversation and building collectively and what does it mean to build... Movement building doesn't happen overnight. It's not something that you just throw the words out. Really, movement implies that we are in alignment, that we are seeking unity, that we are struggling together. And while we all are not the same, that does not mean that we cannot be moving in ways that support each other in solidarity and in grace.
Sherylynn Sealy:
That's great. Well, thank you both so much for the conversation. In the spirit of alignment and kinship that we just talked about, a friendly and gentle reminder to all of our listeners. The first step of building movement is to move. So reach out, check in, call colleagues, send emails. We definitely want to continue building this movement. And so I hope that this was really energizing and encouraging, and we look forward to seeing you at the GIA Conference. If you have any questions about this podcast or upcoming programming, you can feel free to reach out to me, Sherylynn Sealy at sherylynn@giarts.org, or visit our website at giarts.org and be sure to follow Grantmakers in the Arts on Twitter and Facebook at GI Arts, as well as Instagram at Grantmakers in the Arts for exciting new updates. Thanks so much for listening, everyone.
